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TWO FOR THE ROAD:

The operatic journey of (married) artists Frances Bagley and Tom Orr, production designers of The Dallas Opera’s new production of Verdi’s Nabucco, interviewed by The Dallas Opera’s communications manager, Suzanne Calvin.

How did you happen to connect with General Director Karen Stone?

Bagley: Actually, she sent us an email, although we had never met her. So, at first, we thought, “What?”...a little bit puzzled because we hadn’t sought to do this, although Tom and I had both, together and individually, imagined how exciting it would be to do sets for some sort of production. However, it’s the kind of thing that, as artists deep into their career, you don’t think you can necessarily take on without a lot of hand-holding.

Orr: It was a surprise that she called. However, we both had thought about doing this, so, when Karen called we thought, “Well, gosh, let’s see what she has to say.”

Bagley: We held back at first, wanting to understand the breadth of this and what Karen had in mind and whether she had done some research on us. We wanted to know if she knew our background and knew who we were and what we were about – and she did.

Orr: She was very excited, too, and that got us excited about the project.

Bagely: Her enthusiasm is extremely infectious.

You’re not the first people to make this discovery. You are both, highly regarded, accomplished and experienced artists. However, this is a different sort of challenge. Had you thought specifically about designing for opera before?

Bagley: I never thought about opera, per se, but now that I say that, I think about attending operas and imagining what those designers did to come up with what they did, because it’s a visual environment and, consequently, very seductive to visual artists.

Orr: Historically, visual artists have a track record of designing for opera.

What was the biggest question in your minds as you approached this project?

Bagley: We had enough awareness to know that this was a big, complex job. And we also had enough awareness to know that we didn’t know what all the nuances and complexities were; so, we knew we had to have guidance because the learning curve was so great. And that’s exactly what we said to Karen: “What about what we don’t know?” And she said, “Oh, we have that solved – we have the most wonderful, technical person around who will work with you throughout the process and that was Drew Field.” And he has done just that, making sure that the decisions we made were workable, would function, both in the Music Hall and within the context of an opera. So, Drew basically taught us “Stage Design 101” as we came up with the ideas. For instance, we had something we thought would be interesting, a sort of modular approach to the different scenes. But there were size issues: what would fit on that stage, what will come on and off the Music Hall stage, what opera singers can deal with (in terms of climbing or not climbing)...

Orr: And that’s something Drew helped us out with quite quickly. We’d come up with things and say, “We’re thinking about this,” and he would say something like “That’s great, but it’s not going to fit,” or, “It’s wonderful but it needs to be this height in order to be done at all.” So he would tell us those things, right off the bat, which really streamlined the process. It wouldn’t really change our vision, but it would keep us from going on these tangents and wasting time and resources.

Bagley: Every decision we made had to be analyzed in relationship to the stage and the advancement of this opera. There wasn’t a thing we came up with that Drew didn’t interact with.

You’ve worked on large, institutional artworks in the past; in terms of the sheer physical scale, is this the biggest work of art you’ve ever created?

Orr: Well, that’s a tough one: It’s big, in terms of complexity.

Bagley: It’s not the biggest in size but it’s far beyond anything else we’ve done in complexity because it has to move and function and keep changing.

Orr: It’s a huge collaborative thing. And you’re not collaborating with another artist, you’re collaborating with other artists, technical personnel...

Even people who are no longer alive.

Orr: (laughing:) That’s true! That’s one of the biggest collaborations of all, right there.

Bagley: We found ourselves thinking about Verdi and why he made certain decisions. It’s like looking at and analyzing anybody else’s artwork; whether you’re an artist or collector, you think, “Why did he come up with this?” “What does this mean?” And, “What are the reasons behind it?” So, of course, we felt him in our decisions. Verdi’s decisions, obviously, guided our decisions.

Since it was not going to be a stationary artwork, did that aspect make you look at it in a different way?

Orr: Yes.

Bagley: No. (to Tom Orr:) I’m actually surprised that you would say “yes” because I really think we approached it, individually and collectively, almost exactly the way we would approach a collaborative public artwork or large installation.

Orr: Okay. So why did I say “Yes?” I think because it’s more complex than anything I’ve ever done. As opposed to what I normally do, we have to take into account the sound and all sorts of things I don’t normally have to deal with.

Bagley: Maybe I’m taking the word “approach” differently. We first listened to the music – many times – and then we thought we should take a look at some other productions, not to be influenced but to see how it laid out, how other people had organized it. But as we watched other productions, we began to see what we didn’t want to do more than what we did want to do. So I guess, now, I’ll have to contradict myself: We don’t normally approach our art by researching what another artist has done. That’s definitely a difference.

Orr: That’s what I meant.

As artists you are aware, in your core, what other artists have done. So, though you may not actively research it – that knowledge is still within you.

Orr: You see what I mean about everything being complex? Jeez. It’s complex to talk about!

Speaking of which, how did your discussions with stage director James Robinson or General Director Karen Stone affect or alter your vision for this production?

Orr: From the beginning, I think we were all on the same page with this. We all had certain things we wanted but, basically, the concept (for all four of us) was the same.

Bagley: One reason we decided to do it is that Karen (Stone’s) vision was abstract, which was the only way we could do it. You certainly are in Solomon’s Temple and the palace in Babylon...

Orr: ...but in abstract renderings of these places.

Bagley: They are characters and they are real characters, not abstract renderings of them. But they might look as if they are extracted into a timeless edition of the story, it will be much more stylized.

Stylized what? What is it you’re trying to project, abstractly? Is it a physical location, is it power, is it some emotional dimension of the piece?

Orr: All of those, I think, and especially a feeling of this place...

Bagley: The essence of it, without the extraneous detail.

Were there unexpected hurdles?

Orr: There were some technical things, at first, that threatened to put a real crimp in what we want to do but, looking back, those technical difficulties caused us to make changes that made things better and clearer.

Bagley: I know, and we’ve been told many times, that we can’t become devoted to one aspect of our design because things might change. If something doesn’t work, in Dallas or elsewhere, we have to be ready for that...and that might be a little difficult.

Orr: That goes back to the whole collaborative thing: If it’s not right, it has to be changed, now matter how much you want it in there.

Bagley: And then, of course, the director is moving people around on these sets, although Jim Robinson worked very closely with us...

Orr: He was good.

Bagley: He came, many times, and reviewed what we had come up with and made suggestions. We were very excited about the collaborative process of working with him because he’s an extremely creative person and you could feel it as you worked with him: his ideas flowed very freely and one thing that we’ve both been impressed with in working with people from the opera is their open-mindedness and willingness to explore new ideas. To collaborate with people of that mindset has been extremely exciting!

Orr: And technically, they’re really in touch with all the new things that are going on in the theater, which is really interesting because that’s not something I knew that much about...

You sound as if you’re ready to move into lighting design now.

Orr: Well, I’ve always been interested in that.

Bagley: Tom, your work has always had some element of shadow or visual illusion and I think light (and shadow) are things you really gravitate towards.

How did this collaboration affect your collaboration?

Orr: We’re used to collaborating; we cut deals constantly! She writes something for me; I build something for her.

Bagley: Or, you think of an idea and I make suggestions. There’s probably not much in our daily lives that doesn’t pass through the other’s head, because we’re always communicating and very much trust each other’s sensibilities – Although that doesn’t mean we don’t argue or that we just accept what the other person is saying and that’s probably the reason it works. You have to have that kind of “banter” in order for a collaboration to grow.

Orr: We’ve known each other for years, as young artists and when we got together and got married...

Bagley: ...we’d been making art for a long time. We were not the pair that people expected to team up. Nor did we.

Orr: I’m going to speak for myself here, but things really didn’t start to happen for me as an artist until we got together because there was, I dunno...an energy that got together, too, at that point.

Bagley: Everybody who knows us knows that our relationship is a big part of our work, as well as our lives. Tom and I are, evidently, both the type of people who work well in a team, and the main team is Tom and me. It’s been a really productive one.

Do you still find mysteries about each other?

Orr: (quickly:) Oh, yeah.

Bagley: (laughing:) Sometimes we look at each other and think, “Who are you?”

Orr: “What are you doing in this house?” “Where did you come from?”

Bagley: I actually think that’s part of the secret. Even though we work really well together and there are so many aspects of our personalities that are similar, there are others that are exact opposites – which helps keep it alive and mysterious. I wouldn’t say I knew everything about how Tom thinks and I don’t doubt he would say the same about me.

Orr: (laughing:) Oh, you’re wrong there!

Bagley: A lot of our friends ask “How can you be married to another artist?” In our case, it’s absolutely necessary. Our lives are about art. We talk about art all day long. We talk about how to build things, how to imagine things, how to project things – this is the primary conversation that we have so, consequently, it wouldn’t work for either one of us to be married to anyone other than an artist.

What is it you strive for every time you create a work of art?

Bagley: What I’m striving for every time is not something I reach every time. I think the greatest thing an artwork can do is to live without the artist who created it. And if you think back about the works of art, through all time, that have left their mark, it’s those that are still “alive” in the minds and imaginations of the people who look at them. So I would hope, although I’m realistic enough to know that everything I do doesn’t reach this pinnacle, I would hope that I could create an artwork with enough “life” that it doesn’t need me to support it.

Orr: That’s brilliant. That’s exactly right. You know, I was thinking about this. What’s really important to me is that everything I do is taken seriously because I’m dead serious about what I’m doing – I’ve signed on for life. I just want people to take it seriously and, hopefully, see something of what I see.

What do you see when you look at your own work? What’s the essence?

Bagley: It’s the age old question that can’t be put into words. It’s real – for lack of a better word – “fashionable” for artists to explain their works. But I question that. I think the reason why we are visual artists is because that is our mode of expression. You can put words to it and they can even make sense, but it’s probably not going to explain what the work itself is trying to accomplish. I’m not sure it’s possible to define the essence of your own work; although I stand back and I look at it and what I want it to do is make me wonder. I’m looking for my work to question me.

Ms. Bagley and Mr. Orr are represented by Marty Walker Gallery.

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